I just got back from my son’s school where we’ve been rolling out LTSP thin clients into the classrooms. Eventually we’ll be converting almost all of the computers in both buildings (200+ PCs) into thin clients.
Why Thin Clients?
Let’s get one thing straight: 200+ Windows 2000 desktops in a K-12 setting is a Gong Show. There are no other words to describe it.
In a corporate setting, where IT budgets are MUCH higher, its not so bad. Keeping them running, virus free, and usable in a school setting where IT budgets are almost non-existent is a losing battle. It was time for us to jump off the treadmill before we flew off!
Why not just upgrade all the computers? Aside from costing $100K+ in hardware alone, upgrading all of that hardware to XP or Vista would be a massive undertaking. Even if it were possible to upgrade all the desktop hardware, the ongoing admin component is still a very daunting task for a K-12 school on a limited budget.
Converting the existing PCs to thin clients centralizes administration onto a few servers. The PCs become diskless terminals that can easily be replaced when the hardware fails. If a computer does fail, then we just swap it out with another donated computer.
The End Result
It has been a slow process (mainly due to lack of time on my part and lack of funds to pay someone else!) but I think the end result is really going to be great. The school owes a great debt to Scott Newman from Belyea Computers who has configured the Windows terminal servers and has done most of the grunt work in setting up the thin clients. Nice work Scott!
I’m pretty sure I could put 100 people in front of these computers, and 99 wouldn’t have any idea that Windows wasn’t running locally. They boot fast and the response times are really quick. Streaming video isn’t a great, but aside from that I’m very pleased with the end result.
The Setup
- 2 Windows 2003 terminal servers in a cluster that provide a Windows desktop for the clients.
- 1 Ubuntu Linux server that performs DHCP, TFTP, and NFS for the thin clients. This is where LTSP is installed.
What? No Linux Desktop?
One step at a time! One of the nice features of the LTSP thin client is the ability to connect to several different types terminal servers. We have an existing Windows 2003 infrastructure so giving people access to a Windows terminal server is a nice way to ease people into thin client computing. In the near future we’ll put up an Edubuntu server and give people the option of which desktop they want to run.
The Vision
Eventually we’ll be moving almost all of the staff and students onto Linux thin clients. We’ll keep a few normal machines around for multimedia purposes, but we’d like to minimize that where possible. The cost savings on client OS licensing, anti-virus protection, and administrative effort are going to be significant and should result in a huge return on investment.
More About LTSP
You got an interesting blog, so I have to keep commenting here.
We’ve been doing a lot of thin client roll out as wells.
At Sutton we’ve been testing thinstation (pretty awesome), and lately 2X. After my sysadmin set up a demo 2x install, had it authenticating to the Active Directory, and demonstrated the performance, I was pretty sold.
Performance wise, we can watch videos over youtube like they were playing locally. rdesktop’s performance, from what I’ve seen, is faster than the crappy RDP client with Windows XP.
2X supports PXE boot, but for systems without PXE nic’s , we boot off a linux CD (from 2X), and then do a software PXE boot. Works well. You can control all the thin terminals from a centralized web interface.
Curious why did you guys chose LTSP versus 2X or Thinstation?
Ben.
Hi Ben. Thanks! I try to be interesting…
The decision on LTSP was made quite some time ago. At the time, ThinStation was looking like it might have been abandoned and the project that became the 2X client was running under another name and also appeared to be in limbo.
I’m glad to hear that ThinStation is still on its feet because it looked pretty good when I played with it.
We’ll definitely evaluate them before we roll it out big time. It wouldn’t be hard to switch.
Am very curious about your specs for the server, number of clients, performance and apps that you may run under Linux. (Is it your intention to offer the edu suite under the mentioned edubuntu?) We already have a Win2003 Server + Terminal Servers setup with 19 Thin Clients (6 -Wyse 1200le, 1 – Wyse 1125 and 12 – HP5000-WinCE versions). We also have plenty of fat Dell Optiplex Win2K and XP systems in our computer lab for running more graphic-based products (Publisher, some reading applications, typing program and if we can resurrect, Kidpix. (TuxPaint may have to replace, but there aren’t many templates and lesson plans on the internet for TuxPaint and our teachers are not at a point where “from scratch or converting” is appealing.)
We’ve been running 10-year old win95 32MB Compaqs (yup, not win98) machines with remote desktop to the servers but are beginning to lose hard disks; they also take forever to boot because of the hard disks. I’ve been experimenting with thinstation and 2x at home in anticipation of rolling something out this fall–either on the old win95 machines or perhaps by getting some donated similar systems.
I’ve been looking at several options–thinclient conversion (thinstation, 2x, SeamlessRDP (to help with management), SimplyRDP, LiveCD linux (DSL, Puppy, Knoppix, edu-nix), linux terminal server, web kiosks via live cd, a desktop multiplier, NX other vm projects). At the moment, classrooms need internet access and access to apps supplied on Terminal Servers (Office mostly, but a few others). I’d like internet access to be direct, but may have to be through Win TS; we use Renaissance Place hosted software which requires a number of plug-ins (Shockwave, Flash, Reader, Quicktime(optional) and for automatic printing, a printer activex item) that I’ve not been able to resolve with just plug and play thin clients as yet. I could build my own, but I currently don’t have equipment to really build, and building my own using Thinstation ts-o-matic or anywhere-ts (uses thinstation) has not resulted in success–let alone my own remastered linux distro.
We’ve got about 10-11 other donated systems (They are below our district’s donation policy.) I think they are PII 256MB, probably 300-450MHz with clean Win2K. We’d potentially convert them to thin clients as long as we don’t need a fat client for serving a scanner for a Renaissance Place math program.
Classroom printers are occasionally served off a class machine, but the remainder of those will be moved to print servers this year to alleviate shuffling issues as hardware fails, swapped or needs change.
My intention is to a) convert any PC without much effort to a thinclient, b) keep administration costs down (we budget only a small amount for a sys admin per month (he installs, configures servers, and handles server and client updates); other than that, like most schools, we have no IT support at all–just a couple of parents some of whom have experience with terminal servers.
Our main Windows 2003 server is a dual dual-core Opteron with 4GB RAM and RAID 1 15K SCSI disks.
The LTSP server that performs LTSP duties is running in a VMware virtual machine on a relatively fast dual opteron box. It doesn’t take much in the way of resources. We’ve got approximately 90 PCs converted to LTSP but I don’t know the maximum # of concurrent sessions.
More in a while.
I am interested in setting up an LTSP server to run office applications for end users, but some users will not be able to give up their XP machines immediately. Is there a Console application that will allow them to log into the terminal server from Windows XP clients?
I haven’t tried connecting a Windows XP machine to an X server, but it can certainly be done. The open source way is Cygwin (http://www.linux.com/articles/55291).
There are also tons of commercial X clients available if you’re not averse to spending a little money…
Hi Casey. I found your blog a while ago and this is an interesting article for me and my school in Vietnam. I’m not sure if I can handle the same job (to change old PCs in my school into thin clients running WIndows desktop), so please show me a how-to if you have it, or maybe some links to a practical how-to somewhere else. I’m a newbie to edubuntu and come from a far under-developed country .
For #5 & #6:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xming might be a possibility or do a pxe boot from vmware player session for a conventional LTSP connection.
I’m in the middle of a conversion project to LTSP – but we are getting hung up on the fact that we need stable Flash and Shockwave plugins working…. this has proven to be more than a headache for us, and unfortunately there are a few key websites that require Shockwave director that are indispensable… I’m personally at my wit’s end with proprietary browser plugins.
Just felt like venting, thanks =)
can I publish windows desktop (windows 2003 server) into linux LTSP thin client?so what i must prepare?how many license I must provide for windows 2003 server as a host, I want to spread windows 2003 server desktop into thin client using K12 LTSP, is that possible?Thanks!
We use the LTSP clients to connect to Windows 2003 server desktops using the LTSP RDP client. It works very well. You need a terminal services client access license for each person connecting to the server. I believe that microsoft has a couple of different licensing schemes (per user and per device?) and I must admit that I didn’t set that part up. To be honest, the LTSP setup was pretty easy compared to doing all the configuration for Windows terminal server.
How about helping Hoang Lan.
i have been using PXEthin client since 2004, a few year before it became 2x http://www.2x.com/thinclientserver/thinclsrvfeatures.html
I am running a doctor clinics with 2 doc , practice manager and a receptionist. using windows 2003 terminal server. yes, the image i created is stored in the server . to cut the story short, all i want to do is to help Hoang Lan.. so please forward my email to this lady.
kind regards
Thomas
My school is looking to the same thing, switch old computers to thin clients, unfortunatly I have no idea what I am doing. My school needs to have linux thinclients that authenticate with server 2003 becuase its the law for schools to have to do that. Is that possible? If so, how can I go about doing it without creating a VLAN.
Thanks
Jared
Hi Jared,
Windows server authentication is possible. However, I really do think that you need to find somebody locally who knows what they are doing here. Your local linux users group is a good place to start. Not sure why you would need to do a VLAN in the first place?
Well someone said I needed a vlan because the linux dhcp and the server 2003 dhcp would conflict with each other. Could you explain to me how this is possible.
Jared
Hi Casey,
I wonder if you have any scanners installed & running on the workstation ?
I was looking on a guide to setup scanned on the workstation on similar setup such as yours (ubuntu + ltsp), and surprised that I couldn’t find any.
It as if scanners are not yet supported on LTSP5 / ubuntu+ltsp.
Do you know anything about this ?
If the scanners have to be plugged into the server itself, this will cause problems for those who are located far away from the server.
Thanks,
Harry
yes , Casey
The only reason, i ask you to pass my email to Hoang Lan, was to help her to re-uses these old pentium 2 or 3. for these poor kids at school to use. I know what it is like to being poor. “Been there DONE THAT”.
Well, i guess, i forgot , what’s the purpose of the forum.
regards
Thomas Nguyen
Thomas: I DID send your email to Loang. Perhaps it got lost in transit. I’ll try again. If Loang is not resourceful enough to figure out LTSP on her own (it isn’t hard) then he/she is NEVER to be able to support it in the long run. I sincerely doubt that the success/failure of the implementation is going to rest on whether you are in contact or not.
With regard to the technical questions: I haven’t been involved on the deep technical side of the LTSP rollout for almost a year. The purpose of the blog post was to let people know that LTSP exists and what it can do for you. The comments section was never meant to be a technical support forum.
If you need LTSP help, the place to get it: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=ltsp-discuss
Hi Casey,
I thought you were ignoring me.
thank you for that.
no, LTSP not that hard, just a bit of research, and a few weeks testing the thing then you be right
.
regards
Thomas
Hi Thomas. I’m here again.
Thanks for your interests about my problems.
I still need help on LTSP and thin client.
My mail address is : lanhoangdn@gmail.com.
My school is in Bien Hoa, Dong Nai Province, Viet Nam, in case you want to know.
I visited 2x and found good solutions as they said. But the free edition seems to be restricted by no. of users, isn’t it?
Maybe I’ll try next week!
Hope to hear from you soon
To Casey : you are right! I’m not a technician, so in the long run I’m not sure I can maintain the network myself. My school will need support from a professional, but until we have him, I think it worths a try. All I need is a step by step guide for the first setup, and someone to ask for if the progress is in trouble. Thank you for a good article that raise my heart.
Hi!
Great post!
I was wondering if you could do the same *without* LTSP by simply isntalling thinstation on the clients and running the 2 windows 2003 server?
Or am I dead wrong?
I assume that would work. But that is really an entirely different way of doing it since its a local install and not a PXE net boot…
h!,
I learned lot from this website, this is awesome information and I am also introduce this LTSP in my Office